Is there ever any possibility of justifiable homicide during the liturgy?
I pondered this question during church today. Possibly one more sin, to pile on an ever growing list of ones for that much, much over due confession....
But the noise was particularly bad today. And you hear it especially when you sit in back. Which I was today.
It sounded kind of like this........
Fr. Salib: Make us all worthy, O our Master, to partake, of your holies unto za purification of our souls, our bodies and our spirits. That we may become one body and one spirit, and may have a share and an inheritance with all za saints who have pleased you since za beginning. Remember, O Lord, za peace of your one, only, holy, catholic and apostolic church.
(Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Thump!) (Bang!) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp)
DEACON: Pray for the peace of the one holy catholic and apostolic Orthodox church of God.
(Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp)
CONGREGATION: (Thump thump thump) Lord have mercy (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp)
Fr. Salib:: This which you have acquired unto yourself with the precious Blood of your Christ. Keep her in peace, with all za Orthodox bishops who are in her. Foremost, remember, O Lord, our blessed and honoured father, za archbishop our patriarch Abba......
(Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp)
DEACON: Pray for our high priest Papa Abba..., pope, and patriarch and archbishop of the great city of Alexandria; and for our Orthodox bishops.
(Stomp) (thump) Stomp) (thump)
CONGREGATION:Lord have mercy. Kirie Eleyson.
(Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp)
We've had different discussions on "The Arab Mind". Especially in reference to church. There was a great article written by a Southern (American) convert to the Antiochian church.
http://southern-orthodoxy.blogspot.com/2004/05/orthodoxy-in-dixie.html
And it even supplied some fodder for an ooze thread on culture (especially clashes) in church life.
Anyway it just seems to me that that arabs, can be way to loose on letting their kids run rampant in public. Some of this can't be helped; namely because we have no nursery. But I really think a lot of it can (my dad would have wrung my neck back in the day for stuff much less obnxious). And of course, this also caused us some problems with the neighbors as well...
But in church today, after some minutes of annoyance I realized it best to "make lemonade out of those sour lemons". And decided that attempting to recreate the experience in a blog post, might be fairly funny.
:)
I pondered this question during church today. Possibly one more sin, to pile on an ever growing list of ones for that much, much over due confession....
But the noise was particularly bad today. And you hear it especially when you sit in back. Which I was today.
It sounded kind of like this........
Fr. Salib: Make us all worthy, O our Master, to partake, of your holies unto za purification of our souls, our bodies and our spirits. That we may become one body and one spirit, and may have a share and an inheritance with all za saints who have pleased you since za beginning. Remember, O Lord, za peace of your one, only, holy, catholic and apostolic church.
(Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Thump!) (Bang!) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp)
DEACON: Pray for the peace of the one holy catholic and apostolic Orthodox church of God.
(Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp)
CONGREGATION: (Thump thump thump) Lord have mercy (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp)
Fr. Salib:: This which you have acquired unto yourself with the precious Blood of your Christ. Keep her in peace, with all za Orthodox bishops who are in her. Foremost, remember, O Lord, our blessed and honoured father, za archbishop our patriarch Abba......
(Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp)
DEACON: Pray for our high priest Papa Abba..., pope, and patriarch and archbishop of the great city of Alexandria; and for our Orthodox bishops.
(Stomp) (thump) Stomp) (thump)
CONGREGATION:Lord have mercy. Kirie Eleyson.
(Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp) (Stomp)
We've had different discussions on "The Arab Mind". Especially in reference to church. There was a great article written by a Southern (American) convert to the Antiochian church.
http://southern-orthodoxy.blogspot.com/2004/05/orthodoxy-in-dixie.html
And it even supplied some fodder for an ooze thread on culture (especially clashes) in church life.
Anyway it just seems to me that that arabs, can be way to loose on letting their kids run rampant in public. Some of this can't be helped; namely because we have no nursery. But I really think a lot of it can (my dad would have wrung my neck back in the day for stuff much less obnxious). And of course, this also caused us some problems with the neighbors as well...
But in church today, after some minutes of annoyance I realized it best to "make lemonade out of those sour lemons". And decided that attempting to recreate the experience in a blog post, might be fairly funny.
:)
posted by Addai | 9:21 PM
10 Comments:
Ah, kids in church. I'm usually not annoyed by other people's kids. It's my own that can drive me nuts. Mostly, Ana gets it. David is still in outer space most of the time which makes me nuts. But it does give me a whole lot of compassion for the other parents there, so much so that I'll sometimes try to help them and pick up their kids when my own aren't acting all that great.
yeah I knew you'd jump in. heh
I think the problem is there is a popular middle eastern parenting style to let the kids run around to tire them out. So they will sleep, be more docile and so on.
Some Egyptain mothers have been known to do this so they can talk to their lady friends.
This kind of loose parenting. I don't think mixes well in American society. When we got our building permit last year, their was a huge contest against it from the neighbors. And noise from kids yelling, and car door slamming was at the fore front of it. Every few months we even get "disturbing the peace", police complaints.
I've noticed that style of parenting myself, although we don't indulge in it too often. Disturbing the peace? What kind of liturgies do you Copts have anyway! ;)
LOL that's so funny. My commentary is you need to, er, show up earlier and sit closer to the front. ;)
Which (for the viewing audience) I know you regularly do. But seriously, I don't much notice the stomping and other noise, or it doesn't bother me I guess.
Actually I did show up pretty early. You beat me to the church, but I was there just at the end of the matins part. I tend to sit in back when I plan to not take communion, becuase I really dislike having to keep letting people in and out of the pews, like I saw you had to do a few times there sweets.
I probably shouldn't ask this, but...
'Don't plan to take communion...'? Strictly out of curiousity, why would you plan not to (if I may ask)? I've picked up that one's spiritual father decides whether or not he is to be communing, which I assumed was a T, not a t. But then my assumptions always do get me in trouble!
yes strictly speaking your right, as far as a literal "Do you have the right to take it".
There is some variation, and different reasons as far as taking it vs. not taking it.
In general as you know Communion according to St. Ignatius of Antioch is a "medicine of immorality". And the general expectation is you will take just about every liturgy.
But there are other modifiers to that. Especially related to things like conscience, as well as people coming in late. And of course even other variables for women (As in menstruation).
Some of the variables center around the ammmount or frequency of confession before taking communion.
Like I think once a month is standard, for Coptic and EO. And is probably the ideal. So that is what Fr. Salib tends to quote.
And of course, Mark my sunday school teacher mentioned a once every 3 months figure. Which I'm sure some priests quote as an absolute minimum. Because to be honest, I don't think many priests can handle a monthly confession load. Especially ones that oversee more than there local parish (Which I think is true of my priest).
And then you get to some 1 to 1 ers. So I know in both the EO as well as Coptic, and even some staunch Roman Catholics. Who will not take communion unless they have confessed before hand.
We got some old time Egyptians who do this. They get spoiled with having lots of access to the priests, and can confess at least weekly. Even more.
Anyway there are some folks that only take it a few times a year. And I think I've head of some Russian Orthodox who are like that too.
Anyway a lot of this boils down to areas of our priests availability. He is stretched to thin. And its probably an issue for both of us to talk to him about.
I know when one our sunday school teachers didn't take communion he asked him why. And he said "Because I'm late for my last confession". And his advice was more along the lines of St. Ignatius. "Take it now, confess later".
Of course much of our congregational talk on this matter really has centered around with people taking it to lightly. As in
Which has centered on people coming in way too late (actually after the Gospel reading or sermon) and taking it anyway.
As well as other issues, like people not doing fasting and confession to prepare for it.
Anyway the problem that has been really highlighed is people taking it mechanically. As pure routine, and even in a improper way (like coming to church extremely late just before the eucharist to take it. Or in the case of children, running around outside, beind disruptive of the service during the liturgy, but taking it).
So in light of some congregational scoldings by our priest. I've become a little more conservative. Another issue is the left over Protestant baggage, that since some of my past confession didn't go through. I feel the need to "psych up" and make myself a little uncomfortable by not taking it. I however think with the approach of Lent and that since we are about to enter a great season of Fasting and Penance I will be more assertive at knocking on his door. I tend to dislike having to be really pushy, but I think there are times when you might actually have to be given the congregational dynamics.
Jim,
The short answer is... :) We're both overdue for confession, and Abouna has been pretty inaccessible lately due to many pressures of his own.
Thanks for 'the long and the short of it' guys (nyuck-nyuck-nyuck) ;-D
We pretty much commune weekly (and I dare say in most of the AOA). OUr problem is getting people to come to confession at all. We had a part time priest for years and years, who basically did a "group confession" after the liturgy on Sundays. So when we got a priest who did "personal confession" alot of people stopped coming all together. It does put the preist in a tough spot (glad I am not one.
It seems to be an age old struggle.....proper preparation vs. frequent communion. I think we should come often, and prepare as best we can. I try to confess in every fasting period (shoudl be mroe often though) and anytime somthing "rises its ugly head" within me. Thankfully that has been less lately, whoich probably means I'll be shooting heroin in a brothel tomorrow if God does not have mercy on me....
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