Is there any decent Orthodox alternative to theooz.com and all this emergent/pomo this and that has been proclaimed as Gospel the past few years? (I'm almost thinkin we should all band together and make one).

I figured I would ask that question... Also it provides me a good opportunity to post these Mclaren satire pics since I decided that a full blown criticism series might be too negative.. or a bit of an over kill (I'll leave that too the conservative Calvinists).Still it's good to have a laugh once in a while hence the pics...

(edit add on)

The Unbearable Agony of Being Brian McLaren

http://thinklings.org/?p=2889

Ok one Protestant guy, has done something I've been doing recently, basically showing there is a traditional, conservative (Orthodox) Christian middle ground around some of these issues that Brian Mclaren tends to respond to with spinelessness and/or heterodox sounding answers. I really believe more of us, should be doing this (Showing that this is not a "false dichotomy", either/or situation, on many of these issues that Emergents have been "So open minded that their brains have fallen out").

A story of Constructive Ecumenicism from today's Synaxarium


The Martyrdom of St. Sedhom Bishay in Domiat.
On this day also the church commemorates the martyrdom of Sedhom Bishay in Domiat on the 17th. of Baramhat year 1565 A.D. (March 25th., 1844 A.D.). He endured the torture for the Name of the Lord Christ and his martyrdom made the rising of the Cross during the Christian funeral processions openly, for it was forbidden before.

This martyr was a clerical employee in the government of the port of Domiat during the days of Mohammed Ali Basha the Governor of Egypt. A revolt of mobs in the port arose, they seized Sidhom Bishay and accused him falsely that he cursed Islam and witnessed against him before the religious judge a low uncivilized person and a donkey driver. The judge decided either he would forsake his faith or be killed, he whipped him and then sent him to the Governor of the city. After the Governor had examined his case he issued the same judgement against him as the judge did. Sidhom was steadfast in his Christian faith, not caring to be killed. They whipped, dragged him on his face down the stairs in the Governor palace, then they put him on a buffalo facing the tail and went around with him in the streets of the city insulting and degrading him. The Christians in the city became afraid and locked themselves in their houses.

The mob continued to insult him and tortured him in different ways until he was about to deliver his soul; so they brought him to the door of his house and left him there. His family went out and brought him inside and five days later he departed to heaven.

His departure was a great martyrdom, and the Christians counted him among the holy martyrs. They gathered regardless of their denomination and joined in his funeral in a celebration that there was nothing like it before. The Christians carried their arms and the priest put on their vestments headed by the Archpriest Yousef Michael who was the head of the Coptic congregation in Domiat and accompanied by the priests of the other denominations. They marched in his funeral in the streets of the city and in front of him the deacons carrying the banners of the Cross, and they arrived to the church where they prayed the funeral rites. The people went on objecting this reprehensible and painful incident and talking about the patience and endurance of the different kinds of torture in silence and the steadfastness of Sidhom the martyr.

The prominent people of the Christian community in Domiat deliberated as how to avoid these incidents in the future. They decided to ask the consuls of the foreign countries to mediate with the ruler of the country and the Pope the Patriarch of the Copts and sent to them detailed reports. Mr Michail Sorour the official representative of seven countries in Domiat was in charge of this mediation.

The ruler of Egypt was concerned about this incident and sent two official representatives to examine the case. So they reopened the inquiry and they realized the injustice and the ill-treatment that befell the great martyr and convicted the judge and the governor for their wrong doing, stripped them from their honor then exiled them. They asked, as a good will and to comfort the people, to allow the raising of the Cross publicly before the Christian funerals, and the ruler allowed that in Domiat. This was allowed later on all over the country during the Papacy of Pope Kyrellos IV.

Early Attestation to the Afterlife

(addai - found this today so might as well add it to what I posted yesterday from communityfirst.cc/chris/documents/docs/universalism.htm sorry, couldnt give link without it messin up my format.)


At this point, we have seen that the major texts uses for proof of universalism in the Bible seem to crumble in their context. The next problem we shall deal with is the afterlife, specifically the belief in a torturous hell. There are several early Jewish and Christian witnesses to the afterlife. We shall briefly look at a few of these texts, but I must concur with Alfred Edersheim here that the Jewish writings are not authoritative but give much insight into the Judaism from which Christianity arose. First of all, we have “Against Plato, On the Cause of the Universe” by Hippolytus. This work is also known as Josephus' “Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades". However, current scholarship attributes this work to Hippolytus, a disciple of Irenaeus, who lived from about 170 until 236. To Hippolytus, as well as Jesus in his story of the rich man and Lazarus, hades is the abode of the just and the unjust until the final judgment. In this first section of his work, Hippolytus speaks of “a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men.” This is the place described further below:

“But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good-will, but as prisoners driven by violence; to whom are sent the angels appointed over them to reproach them and threaten them with their terrible looks, and to thrust them still downwards. Now those angels that are set over these souls drag them into the neighborhood of hell itself; who, when they are hard by it, continually hear the noise of it, and do not stand clear of the hot vapor itself; but when they have a near view of this spectacle, as of a terrible and exceeding great prospect of fire, they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished thereby: and not only so, but where they see the place [or choir] of the fathers and of the just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it.”

Note that this is still speaking of the time before the final judgment. The early Jewish take on the final judgment is seen in section six:

“To these belong the unquenchable fire, and that without end, and a certain fiery worm, never dying, and not destroying the body, but continuing its eruption out of the body with never-ceasing grief: neither will sleep give ease to these men, nor will the night afford them comfort; death will not free them from their punishment, nor will the interceding prayers of their kindred profit them; for the just are no longer seen by them, nor are they thought worthy of remembrance.”

At the very least, within 200 years of Christ's death, we see in a fairly detailed account of an eternal punishment in an unquenchable fire of the “unjust” men. Josephus, the 1st-Century Jewish historian, will now be consulted for 1st-Century Jewish beliefs. In his Second Book of the Jewish War, chapter 8, section 14, Josephus speaks of the Pharisees. He states that “They say that all souls are incorruptible, but that the souls of good men only are removed into other bodies, - but that the souls of bad men are subject to eternal punishment.” In that same section, we read that the Sadducees do not believe in an afterlife for the soul. In section 11 of the same chapter, we read of the Essenes “the vehement inclinations of bad men to vice are restrained, by the fear and expectation they are in, that although they should lie concealed in this life, they should suffer immortal punishment after their death.” These are the beliefs of the three main Jewish sects at the time the New Testament was written. The sects who believe in an afterlife reflect the Jewish belief that there is “eternal punishment” for men in that afterlife.

An End To The Universalism topic.


I've decided to wrap up this topic to make way for an even bigger one Mclarenism.


My way of wrapping it up is also pretty darn simple, assuming your Orthodox that is. You can reject the extreme end of Universalism, by just following the history of the Church's teaching on this subject. While I have heard the (false) claim that this teaching did not originate until the mid 500 (whenever the Eastern Orthodox had that big counsel that dealt with Origenism), in my studies I have found all kinds of various prior precedents that suggest that this has been the teaching of the Church.


Like the Athanasian Creed for instance which says
"And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved."
Retrieved from "http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Athanasian_Creed"


According to Tradition, Athenasius had a hand in formulating this creed. Besides this there are other precendents like Statements made by Ignatius of Antioch

"CHAPTER XVI.--THE FATE OF FALSE TEACHERS.
Do not err, my brethren. Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If, then, those who do this as respects the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with any one who corrupts by wicked doctrine the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified! Such an one becoming defiled [in this way], shall go away into everlasting fire, and so shall every one that hearkens unto him"


Besides this statement there is another statement of his that I lost track of, I read it once but can't for the life of me find it again. But I will try to paraphrase it. It basically described the notion of hell that Bishop Kallistos Ware described. It spoke that God is like a "great furnance" used for firing clay pots. And those that die unprepared are like the clay pots that burst in the fire (due to the bubbles, and imperfections). Anyway the quote both described a classical Orthodox notion of both Hell as well as the process of theosis in this life.


Which is significant in light of my earlier comments as in "But if there be any (heresies) which are bold enough to plant themselves in the midst of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches..." This is the testimony of an Early Bishop whose authority is recognized.


Besides this there are other ones: As I mentioned before barring of the Origen from the priesthood is another one (It's a repudiation on all the teachings that he taught that were contrary to Orthodoxy. The pre-existence of souls especially, but this one also to a lesser degree).


The fore mentioned Athenasian Creed is probably the best one. While this creed with modern scholarship has come under dispute in much the same way that modernists debate any dogmatic teaching, it is more credible if you take it in its context. Specifically speaking it is now often labeled as a "Latin Creed", because it most often used by the Roman Catholic Church. Which uses it in worship, dogma etc. From a Literary Critism stand point, I also know it is supposed to have some Latin nuances (suggesting it is Latin origen, and critics don't date this until the 500s). But what is impressive is the Coptic and Eastern Orthodox testimony. The Coptic testimony regarding the creed is impressive because Coptic Church testifies to the Creed even though it supposedly came out a good 100+ years after the Schism with the Coptic Church and the Church of Rome. And anyone knowing about the fallout of the Counsel of Chalcedon knows that we stopped associating and adopting anything that was Latin after that time. And of course the Eastern Orthodox use of the creed is extra gravey that shows this to be a truely Catholic expression of Faith (as in the St. Vincent Lerins expression of "what is held by all Christians at all times").


And finally for those that don't understand how the Early Church and contemporary Orthodox church works (in contrast to Protestantism), I would recomend this story.

The Orthodox Church and the Lutherans -An ecumenical correspondence from 1573 to 1581.

http://home1.inet.tele.dk/moebjerg/en-orthodox.htm


And I would focus on one of the last comments made regarding the dogmatic nature of the statements made by Patriarch Jeremiah II


"It became a voluminous work, when the total correspondence in 1584 was published in Wittenberg - nearly 300 pages. The Lutherans have not since picked up the thread, but in the Orthodox world the correspondence has got authoritative character, as the answers of the patriarch are looked at as one of the "confessions" of the Orthodox Church - with with reference to the Lutheran heresy. Still the 161 pages long letters of the patriarch form part of the symbolic books of the Orthodox Church, and Orthodox theological students have to go through this more than 400 years old dialogue between the Orthodox and the Lutherans."


I would suggest this true for all statements and decisions regarding this Issue. From St. Ignatius, to the dealing with Origen by his contemporary Church authorities, to even the Byzantine Church's dealings with the heresy of Origenism in its own jurisdiction which are referenced on the Coptic site (As reflecting out opinion as well, these show the great heretical legacy of Origen and from the basis of his thought).

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/patrology/schoolofalex2

"THE ANATHEMAS AGAINST ORIGEN"

1. If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema.


11. If anyone shall say that the future judgment signifies the destruction of the body and that the end of the story will be an immaterial , and that thereafter there will no longer be any matter, but only spirit (nous): let him be anathema.


12. If anyone shall say that the heavenly Powers and all men and the Devil and evil spirits are united with the Word of God in all respects, as the (Nous) which is by them called Christ and which is in the form of God, and which humbled itself as they say; and [if anyone shall say] that the Kingdom of Christ shall have an end: let him be anathema.


14. If anyone shall say that all reasonable beings will one day be united in one, when the hypostases as well as the numbers and the bodies shall have disappeared, and that the knowledge of the world to come will carry with it the ruin of the worlds, and the rejection of bodies as also the abolition of [all] names, and that there shall be finally an identity of the (gnosis) and of the hypostasis; moreover, that in this pretended apocatastasis, spirits only will continue to exist, as it was in the feigned pre-existence: let him be anathema.

15. If anyone shall say that the life of the spirits (noon) shall be like to the life which was in the beginning while as yet the spirits had not come down or fallen, so that the end and the beginning shall be alike, and that the end shall be the true measure of the beginning: let him be anathema.



The later is a theological opinion and verdict which while it does not have direct authority over us (The Coptic Church), is nevertheless always noted and cited by us, concerning this issue (In the same way that courts of other nations and states usually hold up the decisions of ones that our outside their jurisdiction, and do so consistently unless it can be clearly demonstrated that such rulings are "not made in good faith", or otherwise faulty or flawed). Considering the fact that Roman Catholic, Coptic Orthodox, and Eastern Orthodox opinion are unanimous on this topic. And given it early official paper trail, this dogma fits the St. Vincent Canon as well or better then many others we accept as "Holy Tradition".

The Compossibility of a Loving God & the Eternal Destruction of Sinners

It's a discussion thread started by a Coptic (cradle) poster who I have a lot of respect for. He actually started a debate that somewhat hijacked a thread, until he started this thread on Universalism. (The Greek Orthodox christian supports it, he also has been "out there" on other issues, of late calling Orthodox of an Antiochian theological persuasion "Judaisers"). Anyway this has been a "happy coincidence", as far as my blogging is concerned.

"But Hell exists as well as Heaven. In recent years many Christians — not only in the west, but at times also in the Orthodox Church — have come to feel that the idea of Hell is inconsistent with belief in a loving God. But to argue thus is to display a sad and perilous confusion of thought. While it is true that God loves us with an infinite love, it is also true that He has given us free will; and since we have free will, it is possible for us to reject God. Since free will exists, Hell exists; for Hell is nothing else than the rejection of God. If we deny Hell, we deny free will. ‘No one is so good and full of pity as God,’ wrote Mark the Monk or Hermit (early fifth century); ‘but even He does not forgive those who do not repent’ (On those who think to be justified from works, 71 (P.G. 65, 940D). God will not force us to love Him, for love is no longer love if it is not free; how then can God reconcile to Himself those who refuse all reconciliation? The Orthodox attitude towards the Last Judgment and Hell is clearly expressed in the choice of Gospel readings at the Liturgy on three successive Sundays shortly before Lent. On the first Sunday is read the parable of the Publican and Pharisee, on the second the parable of the Prodigal Son, stories which illustrate the immense forgiveness and mercy of God towards all sinners who repent. But in the Gospel for the third Sunday — the parable of the Sheep and the Goats — we are reminded of the other truth: that it is possible to reject God and to turn away from Him to Hell. "Then shall He say to those on the left hand, The curse of God is upon you, go from my sight into everlasting fire" (Matt. 25:41). There is no terrorism in the Orthodox doctrine of God. Orthodox Christians do not cringe before Him in abject fear, but think of Him as philanthropos, the ‘lover of men.’ Yet they keep in mind that Christ at His Second Coming will come as judge. Hell is not so much a place where God imprisons man, as a place where man, by misusing his free will, chooses to imprison himself. And even in Hell the wicked are not deprived of the love of God, but by their own choice they experience as suffering what the saints experience as joy. ‘The love of God will be an intolerable torment for those who have not acquired it within themselves’ (V. Lossky, The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church, p. 234). Hell exists as a final possibility, but several of the Fathers have none the less believed that in the end all will be reconciled to God. It is heretical to say that all must be saved, for this is to deny free will; but it is legitimate to hope that all may be saved. Until the Last Day comes, we must not despair of anyone’s salvation, but must long and pray for the reconciliation of all without exception. No one must be excluded from our loving intercession. ‘What is a merciful heart?’ asked Isaac the Syrian. ‘It is a heart that burns with love for the whole of creation, for men, for the birds, for the beasts, for the demons, for all creatures’ (Mystic Treatises, edited by A. J. Wensinck, Amsterdam, 1923, p. 341). Gregory of Nyssa said that Christians may legitimately hope even for the redemption of the Devil.", Bishop Kallistos Ware, "The Orthodox Church"

The Dogma of Eternal Death I wanted to restart or at least simplify my previous project on Universal reconciliation. Rather than make things really thorough and possibly boring (as well as laborious). Instead I'm going to make things really, really simple. If you are Orthodox (Eastern or Oriental) or Catholic the eternity of Hell is dogma. Basically an authoritative teaching, asserted without question, reservation, and so forth. It is a teaching like many other theological developments, i.e. the Trinity, Christologica statements, virgin birth and ever Virginity of Mary, etc. Something that comes by way of Tradition, seen in the scriptures and testified by the Fathers, but not necessarily something that would be seen in early Judaism. (Which should not be suprising since there are many words in hebrew with vague or indefite meanings, and there is a huge ammount of theological developement within Judaism from the time of Abraham to the incarnation of Jesus). This dogma has been taught almost unanimously, except by 3 distinct groups 1) Gnostics (especially Valentians). 2) Some Church Fathers who were heavily involved in Neo Platonic thought. and 3) Contemporary Liberal Protestants. Anyway in the coming days, I will go through and walk through the developement of this dogma, step by step.

Status I will be trying to get back to the Universal Reconcilliation series, but will probably loosen it up a bit, so it's a more fun and less laborious. And on the ooze... There has been a resurgance of interest in Orthodoxy that I find very encouraging. Gina and I are holding the fort, in the absence of deacon Raphael going AWOL for Lent.some recent threads of interest. "Differences between Western & Eastern Thinking & Chrisitanity" http://www.theooze.com/forums/discussions.cfm?forumid=10&topicid=270303 Mission in the EO church http://www.theooze.com/forums/discussions.cfm?forumid=10&topicid=273190 The mystic way and the "Word" fully integrated http://www.theooze.com/forums/discussions.cfm?forumid=10&topicid=265148 The Jesus Prayer, prayer ropes, beads, and/or rosaries http://www.theooze.com/forums/discussions.cfm?forumid=43&topicid=270324 I am also rereading the book "The Orthodox Prayer Life", by Coptic monk writer "Matthew the Poor", for Lent. And will necro and contine this thread (transcribe chapter one of the book besides the intro). on this thread here http://www.theooze.com/forums/discussions.cfm?forumid=10&topicid=180359&kw=Orthodox

The proper way to write a letter (Courtesy of my young nephew)



Dear Tooth Fairy

My sister has lost a tooth! I need $10. I can not wait in time for February for Valentine Day. My sister is going with the Easter Bunny.
Please give me $10 ----you are one of my favorite persons. Please leave the money under my pillow.

Tomorrow I will try to write you a neater note, tomorrow.

Oh yah, I really need the $10. YOU are one of my favorite persons. My favorite person is Santa, YOU, and people who are like it.

I heard that you are small. Are you?

My name is Ray Mosko.

I hope you will come back some other day.

You may sign here_______________________!

Love: Ray Mosko