An Illustration of Emergent "Being so open minded that your brain has fallen out."


Back before I was with the Coptic Church, I was formerly with another Church that had its apostolic lines from the Assyrian Church of the East (considered Nestorian by Oriental and Eastern Orthodox). In practice however it was more sacramental Protestant in how it did things. And my own personal theology (being a bit of a unofficial resident theologian) was more Orthodox in nature. It was only a few months after posting this that I actually left this church and joined the Oriental Church when I realized I actually fit the Oriental church much more than the Assyrian one. Anyway this is a bit of a "blast from the past", where you get to see the old pre Coptic Addai. It's basically a small chat thread excerpt where two of names have been withheld for the sake of the privacy of those I'm quoting.


M asks "The Virgin Birth?"
I have a question, more for pastors than anyone else? If there are different theological differences in your congregation regarding say, those who believe the virgin birth is very important and those who see it as a myth, how do you keep them from splitting the congregation?Obviously other topics could do the same, like the resurrection as metaphor or actual resuscitation of a dead body. Or are these things just not talked about?



Addai "RE: The Virgin Birth?"

The Virgin Birth is very important theologically. If you believe that Christs's suffering and death was necessary to redeem mankind, then the virgin birth is a necesaary part of that. Christ is suppose to be the last and ultimate sacrifice. To be that he is suppose to be without sin and iniquity. If he was not born this way how could we be sure of this? In fact, how could we be sure that the right man died period? These are actually very fundamental aspects of Chrisitan Orthodoxy! To not beleive them is simply to try to view and understand the faith through the eyes of Humanism and other philosophies rather than how it has been understood since its inception.


M's reply
Obviously, many do not believe that Christ's suffering and death was necessary to redeem mankind. The 'rescue' idea is traditional but not universally held. Some think that, since most of the heroes of the age were reputed to be born of virgins and resurrected, these are mytns attached in the stories of Christ after his death. So, as a pastor, if you are a pastor, could your congregation accommodate people with such views? Would they be asked to leave? Would they be asked to keep quiet?


Addai's reply
This sort of thing is pretty much the lowest common denominator beliefs of the faith. Without it.. well Jesus becomes just a wise teacher, not much better than any other wise teacher. The first several centuries of Chrisitanity, was struggle over heresies, about the personhood of Christ.. Also what some people consider "myth" I see actually a great revolutionary force, one that is able to overcome death and the sword. Do people really lay down their life for something they think is just a good story or parable, but has no historic or actual truth? What your speaking of my friend seems to repeateing the modernist "Biblical Higher Criticism" of some of the liberal modernist Protestant denominations. I come from a much older Church line, that never bought into any of this thinking (From the Aramaic and Syriac church, which was started from the very first apostles). It's one thing to have a suspicion about the ancient past because you have no conection to it. If you are linked in a continuos succession with history however, your perspective changes. You would not doubt it anymore than you would your mother telling you a story about your great grandfather/mother who you never met, or showing you some letters or other documents belonging to him or her, or even some photos about him/her.I don't think there would be much point in a person not beleiving in the full diviinity etc. of Christ in our services. Still if a person lets say has an open mind on the issue, and their thoughts on this issue is more an expression of doubt, but not out and ideological stance.. I would feel more accomodating. For we all have doubts in our life over many things. But if they feel strongely on the issue, I think I would have to recommend they seek out someone whos views match much closer to their own.


M's reply
Guilty as charged. Post-modern all the way.But I am not sure that my liberal/traditional denomination is doomed just because we allow for a wide range of thought in our members and in our ministers. We could also be called schismatic/prophetic. But we are determined to deal with our diversity, perhaps a little clumsily right now but we will get better at it. I only asked the question because we are willing to profit from the experiences of others.


Pomo Pastor finally comes on and replies (intereting tid bits high lighted).
In our fellowship we have agreed to allow relationships to be the primary bind. If someone asks us what does your church believe we have to answer "I don't know...you will have to ask them".

The challenge has been our leadership. We have developed an open leadership community - any one desiring to lead - CAN - provided they agree to participate as a community (our understanding is this means we agree to permanent relationship). This means we can't leverage our disagreements by threat of leaving.This is somewhat problematic - but we are fighting the culture of the consumer church and the commodification of Christ - so we have agreed to live this way. The virgin birth issue came up in our leadership community as we were forming a statement about what we mean when we say we are "followers of Christ". I suggested that we adopt the apostles creed - but some rejected this because of the statement "born of the virgin Mary". Upon discussion some felt that the story of the virgin birth was a story of "holy rape and incest" God the Father forcing himself upon Mary (feminist theology) some did not believe becasue of scientific reasons - no evidence (empricist), others did not belive because of the parralells in mythology. Our dillema came as others in the leadership community were challenged to make relationship our bind - not belief - we are a "Christian Community" but it does not mean we all believe the same. We have many many diverse beliefs that exist simultaneously (our congregation has even been the subject in one book as "postmodernism gone wrong"). I contend all the time that - all congregations have diverse belief systems in spite of the churches attempt to form doctrinal statements. I ask pastors all the time "when you say this is what your church belives - who is it excatly that believes this - all the people who attend?, all the members?, all the elders? all the staff?, - who exactly is the belivers in this community?M, I think the challenge will be in leadership how will you structure the "ability to lead" the community. Sometimes leaders arise without any of the established positions - they lead simply by virtue of their "compelling relationship" My suggestion to organize not around belief - but organize around permanent realtionships that allow for diversity.